40: How to Thrive in the Face of Fear and Failure with Chris James

Fear and failure can seem like massive roadblocks in your journey, but what if you could turn them into stepping stones? What if these challenges are actually your secret keys to unlocking courage, resilience, and untapped potential?

Chris James swings by for an eye-opening chat, steering us towards a new way of looking at fear and failure. Instead of seeing them as tough obstacles, he suggests treating them as life's teachers and guides towards self-discovery, growth, and personal triumph.

So, come along with me and Chris as we dig into fear and failure, explore the power of curiosity, and highlight the importance of staying true to yourself. We're writing our own story here, using our fears and failures to shape our authentic selves. You're totally invited to join in on this inspiring adventure.

Here are the key takeaways from this episode:

05:32 - Chris dives into his purposeful mission

10:56 - There's such a fine line between confidence and arrogance

19:39 - The importance of having single focus

22:51 - A rejection is essentially a redirection

31:56 - When you do something repeatedly, your confidence grows

38:46 - Why talking with your fear can be beneficial

45:11 - We are not one dimensional, we are on a spectrum

47:58 - Feeling fear is completely normal

About the Guest

Chris James, the visionary behind Content To Clients, has an inspiring personal journey marked by determination and transformation. Driven by his family and personal fulfilment, he turned his life around from being overweight and unhappy to embodying vitality and contentment.

With a wealth of B2B sales and marketing experience under his belt, Chris has successfully sold to major brands such as FedEx, Subway, and Jack Daniels. Today, he dedicates his expertise to help coaches, consultants, and creatives build and scale their businesses through social media.

Through his consulting program, Content To Clients, Chris is committed to changing lives, empowering his clients to live life on their terms, channel their expertise, and monetize their audience using multi-platform content. His story is one of resilience and purposeful change, resonating with everyone seeking to transform their lives and their businesses.

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About Me:

I help you lead with fearless authenticity by smashing the self-imposed heteronormative stereotypes that keep you playing small through emotional healing inner child and inherited intergenerational trauma.

Create a purposeful life of your unique design by disrupting societal norms and expectations of who you should be.

Explore mindfulness, music, fearless curiosity and loving kindness through the lens of Human Design to thrive as the person you are born to be.

Learn more about my coaching method and join my emotional healing, mindfulness, and music community at melissaindot.com.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Chris: Feeling fear is completely normal and I don't think you will ever rid yourself of it. However, you can probably dumb it down and make it smaller and push it to one side through doing the reps, but the first time you go into doing something, fear will be at at its height. Are you gonna let that stop you? That's the question.

[00:00:24] Melissa: Hey there. Welcome to the Fearlessly Curious Podcast, your safe space. Listen, lean in and learn the diversity of human experiences through the lens of fearless curiosity. When we learn more about each other, we also learn more about ourselves. How? Because when we listen to each other's curiosities and experiences, we relate to that which is in common, and that which sets us apart, gives us something to reflect on. We learn through and with each other. I'm grateful to you, the global community, for your curious questions. The Fearlessly Curious Podcast cannot exist without you.

[00:01:11] Melissa: And welcome to another episode of the Fearlessly Curious Podcast. Today, my guest is my good friend and an incredible, incredible coach on so many levels. He takes care of your wellbeing. He's genuinely always concerned about. How you are doing on a personal level, but really in terms of sales, marketing, content creation, lead generation, and an absolute master at creating systems.I mean, this guy has been my angel. Folks listening. Please welcome Chris. James. Chris, it's great to have you with me today on the podcast. How you doing? 

[00:01:48] Chris: Pleasure to be here. Yeah, I'm good. 10 hours sleep last night, which I think is a personal record since I was, I don't know, it goes that far back. I can't remember how old I will have been when I last got this much sleep. So yeah, I am good. All smiles.

[00:02:01] Melissa: I'm happy to hear that. And it's funny, you are opening with sleep and I believe that one of the most underestimated productivity tools is sleep. Mm, I agree. So can you tell us a little bit about where your 10 hours of sleep have come from, and is this usual for you? 

[00:02:17] Chris: No, it's not usual. It's not usual at all. I've been in this business for like, what, 18 months? Something like that, and used to seeing five hours sleep. I would say on average four to six hours sleep a night because I've got very, very high work ethic, too high. I think I did that for a year and now it's time to. Hopefully let the work that I've put in sort of do the work itself rather than me have to supervise every single part of it. And yeah, I started working with a mentor or a accountability partner or a coach. I'm not sure how we define the role that she plays. More like a business therapist, I would say. And the one goal I said that I wanted to address was, Get more sleep. So we've put certain actions in place where I can't go on social media after a certain time and I do different things instead of being on a computer and different things have been moved outta my room. Like the Alexa with the screen has now gone. The TV has now gone. I've bought a new bed, like all these different things that starts to slowly mount up and I agree, even though I feel a little bit groggy from having that much sleep last night. If we can keep this up, I've gone in the past two weeks from an, I would say an average of five to more like an average of seven and a half hours per night.

[00:03:25] Melissa: That's incredible. Congratulations. 

[00:03:27] Chris: I feel so much better. Thank you. It's such a strange thing to talk about because it's like, as you say, it's like so overlooked. It's so fundamental that almost just like no one thinks about it, but there's a reason why all these athletes are sleeping for nine hours. Yeah, and I feel like us in the entrepreneurial space are exactly the same as athletes. We've just got the one muscle that we need to use, but we need to use that the same way they used it. Every muscle in their body. 

[00:03:52] Melissa: Exactly. We need to take care of that needs to be rested. Yeah. We need to take care of that muscle by resting. And let's bring this conversation to the entrepreneur space because I'd love for you to share a little bit about, of course, the usual thing would be for me to say, what do you do, Chris? I don't wanna say, what do you do? I wanna ask you, first of all, why you do what you do. Let's go to the why. Let's take Sinex or cynic, I dunno how to pronounce his name. Little golden nugget. Why do you do what you do? And then what is. Your mission. Small questions, Chris. 

[00:04:22] Chris: Yes, tiny. Why not is the answer for that for me. Okay. Why not? Because I know I can do it. I'm doing it and I enjoy doing it, and it's profitable and it helps other people, so that's why. 

[00:04:34] Melissa: Well, three key whys there? Yeah. If I can just summarise that. Yeah, true, true. I love doing it. Right. You can help people. And you're good at it. I mean, very clear box is there to tick.

[00:04:45] Chris: I reckon there. Go my own question.

[00:04:49] Melissa: By avoiding the authenticity you showing up as you Right. Owning at. I love doing it, and I think that's the key is to do what you love and give yourself permission to do that. And the fact that you are very driven to help people. I know that personally because I've been in your program and this isn't really here just to sort of ra you. I have high respect for you as a person because of your immense drive. And like I said, you. Absolute massive skill on building systems and being so focused on the productivity and then now leaning into that sort of emotional wellbeing and mental health aspect of it, which I think, as you mentioned earlier in the entrepreneurship game or journey or marathon, is more than often overlooked. So what is your mission, Chris?

[00:05:32] Chris: My mission is I know that there is a big problem or a few big problems that stop people living the life that they wanna live. And a big chunk of that is made up by working in a job that they don't wanna work in, essentially. Mm-hmm. So everyone is stuck. And a lot of the time, it took me a while to realise this as well, and as you say, I, I'm only 18 months in or whatever, worrying about sleep and wellbeing and things like that. Obviously I have considered it, but I had to just go out and do the do in order to get to where I'm at now, and then be able to strip things back and look at the fundamentals. And I think. For me, people are acting in a certain way because of past biases, positive or negative things that have been fed into them, like lies almost that they tell themselves and almost they have no idea that it can be another way. Like I used to work in this call centre job where it was like, sure, shank redemption, like you had to ask permission to go to the toilet. Whereas five years later, Seven years later, I'm working at a job where I can do what the hell I want. And I'm not talking about this role now, I'm talking about the one before it. So still an employed role was very much like you are timed toilet breaks versus like you treat like a normal person and you go to a toilet for an hour and no one will question it because you respected and and treated like an adult rather than treated like a a 25 year old child or whatever it was that they were trying to do. And that was a big. Shift for me because when I was in that first role, I didn't know that other jobs like this existed. I thought that was normal. Mm. Like you had to show up and do 200 calls a day and you only get 20 minutes for your lunch and your toilet breaks are timed. And when you leave your desk, a pitcher comes up of you on your screen so all the management can see and it's all tracked. Oh my God. And you're not allowed open mugs on your desk. You have to have one with a cover on. But all the, the senior leadership team are allowed open mugs and cans and stuff like that. And it was just like, A very, very strange place to work. And no wonder I went out and got really drunk at the weekends because it was just, what else was the, just nothing good happening in the week, so I was just stuck there. Thinking that that was normal. That was the problem. It wasn't even necessarily the job was the problem. It was the fact that I thought that it took a lot for me to leave that job and then move on to the next one, which was a lot better, but it's still not like realistic, but it was kind of like, wow, this almost feels like I'm playing.

[00:07:48] Melissa: I'd love to just ask a little bit more about that first job. I'm absolutely like gobsmacked by that, and I'm pretty sure that the places like this still exist, right? This kind of work, super toxic work culture where basically you are meant to be like a machine and you're being controlled a hundred percent. I imagine that a lot of that would've conditioned you to work a certain way, right? High productivity and also teaching you not to take care of your wellbeing. And in a way, maybe that's what you've brought forward in the work that you are doing now. High productivity. Mm. But my question is, cuz you said it was really hard for you to get out of that job. Right? And because you never questioned it, you assumed that as we all would do, when we only have one experience, we believe that the whole life is like that. Everybody's going through the same thing. So what was it that sparked your curiosity?

[00:08:36] Chris: To go elsewhere. Yeah. Just to contact someone that I knew. I mean, I was comfortable there. I met my best friend there. He met his wife there. I met Amy there. Wow. But yeah, I was looking for a way out. I was on the highest payout of every single shop floor or lower worker that you could get. But they didn't even try to keep me because I was so vocal about some of the, like, injustice that happened in there. Like, Ooh. I, I was a whistleblower on a lot of things. Oh, wow. And they didn't, they didn't like it. And yeah, they realised that they couldn't control me, so they had to let me work the way I worked, which produced a lot of the time, the best results. Mm-hmm. Because I was just like, look, I can make 10 calls and do what a lot of people, it'll take 50 to do. It will take them 50 calls to do. So I was like, just let me work my own way and I'll get you the results that you want. And finally, after a couple of years, they actually ended up realising that was the best way, but there was still, they'd always try and make you work more or move the target higher or bring the commission down. And then I would sit down and I would say, I wanna speak to you about this, or I'd do it in front of loads of people. So I'd cause an uproar on per like, try to be very provocative. Mm-hmm. Back in the day. Mm-hmm. Nowadays I would do things a lot differently, but it worked a lot of the time. But it also made the senior management team hate me. Amy was a part of that senior management team. Really? So it didn't make her job. Yeah. Any easier. And it was just time to leave. An opportunity presented itself with a lot more money as well, cuz this was low level. Okay. 

[00:09:55] Melissa: It was pitance. So for those listening, Amy is Chris's wife, the boss. That's really interesting. So you pushed the limits there, right? You pushed the limits and I'm curious to know, most people would be afraid, I'd say to speak up. Because he'd be afraid to lose their job. Mm. Were you not afraid? 

[00:10:13] Chris: Probably. Yeah. I mentioned that I met my best friend there, Adam. He's exactly the same person as me. He will call people out. On anything. We were cheeky, like very cheeky, like young lads. Okay. He's a little bit younger than me, probably cheek than I was as well. But we vibed off each other. They had to split us up, that kind of thing. Was I afraid of losing my job? Yeah, maybe. But, I worked in sales, so it's like you can go in anywhere, maybe redundant. I got that job in 24 hours. I got two offers in 24 hours. I just had conversations with people. So it's say, that's why I'm always, always preached so much that if you can learn sales, you'll never have a problem for money. Mm. So I was worried a little bit. Yeah. Because I was just used to it. But I also knew like, you get rid of me, your profits are gonna suffer.

[00:10:56] Melissa: Okay, so there was a level of confidence that you had arrogance as well. I think there's such a fine line between that confidence and arrogance. 

[00:11:03] Chris: I was quite arrogant. I knew I was the best.

[00:11:06] Melissa: Well, that's confidence, isn't it? That's having the evidence, the proof is in the pudding and you were the pudding, let's face it.

[00:11:12] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. I just think now I would've done things very like a little well, Talking nearly 10 years ago. Yeah. So it would've been do it very differently. But yeah, I did walk around like I knew I was good. 

[00:11:22] Melissa: Yeah. If you did things differently then, do you think you would've made ground the way you did then?

[00:11:27] Chris: Ooh, I don't know mean, I think I was so passionate. I had a manager sit me down and say, he's like, you are like so driven. You've got all this energy. And he's like, If you applied it in the right direction rather than the wrong direction, you would've saw. Mm-hmm. Like you would saw Sky High, and maybe that's what I've done now. Yeah. Versus just being over here moaning about shit. Yeah. Instead of going and doing my own thing. And obviously that takes time. There was one occasion when he actually reduced me, like some of his words, reduced me to tears in a one-on-one, this bottom mine. Mm-hmm. Just because of how hard it hit home.

[00:12:01] Chris: He could just see right through my whole like bravado, see through my act, everything. Right? And he was just like, you are craving attention because your attention, like your attention isn't satisfied with this role. Mm. And like every way that you act is right. Just craving attention.

[00:12:14] Melissa: That's so interesting cuz really what you are sharing right there, at least the way I perceive it, is that sometimes your biggest challenge, like in this case, you're saying this boss of yours was, could see through it all, your bravado, et cetera, but there was still a level of confidence and maybe there was a, this version of you that knew that, not necessarily that you were capable of more, but you were deserving to be in a space that could hold you for the more that you had to give. Does that make sense? And I think the right kind of mentor, the right kind of coach even, but mentor really someone who will push you to that limit and maybe they want different things. For me, right? This case, it was kind of like, Hey, what's your step? Because if you push this any further, I see bravado, you might lose your job, but from you, it's like, Well, maybe that's what I need. Maybe you didn't see that I need to lose my job, but I am being restricted right here. And I love what you shared earlier. It's like you pushed it enough that they let you do what you needed to do until literally you outgrew that space. So that kind of authenticity I think that you showed up with. I'm just gonna add this little bit, Chris. Human design. Cause I've done your human design. This is typical of a manifesting generator who is in alignment. That manifesting part is the vocal part. You will speak your truth mm-hmm. To the areas that you have energy for. And clearly you are passionate. So I don't know, I think you're totally aligned, man. So tell us in more detail. I'm talking too much already. 

[00:13:40] Chris: Oh, you don't want me to start. I'll never stop. 

[00:13:42] Melissa: So tell us where that job led you to, but really more focusing on where you are now. Cause you've only been on this track, this chapter of your life in terms of entrepreneurship for 18 months. And I discovered you on Instagram and I've just watched you in, or literally just explode up. So you just like, Let our listeners and also everybody watching the video podcast, hello. How you got to where you are right now and the actual service you're providing entrepreneurs and business owners out there.

[00:14:10] Chris: Yeah, sure. So I went from this call centre job sales into like a digital advertising, digital media sales position in recruitment, and then I went to a marketing agency selling content to big brands. Doug was there for the last five years. It's also interesting to point out that each one of these. Roles that I've had before I came in here, and I think you'll like this, Melissa. And it's just something I remembered. Yeah. On the first day or the second day, I've gone into the toilet each of these places and it's happened with every single one. Yeah. Like look myself in the mirror and just gone, I can't do this. Wow, I hate this. And it's fight or flight and it happens to me a lot. Wow. When I don't understand something or I don't initially like something, it's fight or flight. Every single one of those roles I've gone on to be the top performer. Or if not in the recruitment role, in the, the selling, the media role. Selling the space. Sorry, I was second. Mm-hmm. Um, but I had gone from like terrified or I need to escape. I wanna go back to the safe the way things were to gimme six months. Just dominating it, which is interesting. And, and I don't say that to show off. I, I say that to make, make people aware, like you'll probably have whatever new situation you come into, this resistance to start or resistance to continue because it's hard. You don't understand it. It's safer back there or whatever it is. It's a bit warmer over there. There's comfort blankets over there, whatever it is. But if you can push through, that's when the good things will happen. But anyway, that was sort of a side note. So moving on from the agency role. Yeah. I was sort of heading up sales spearheading the, the markets that we went after. Um, and yeah, trying to sell video. Animation and creative tech pieces, gamification, progressive web apps to massive brands like massive household brands like FedEx, subway, Jack Daniels, Liverpool Football Club, like everyone will know some of the people that we sold.

[00:15:58] Chris: Which football club? The 

[00:15:59] Melissa: best one. Liverpool. Oh. Oh, okay. Well let's move on then. 

[00:16:03] Chris: Yeah. We worked with Man United as well and a few others. Oh, okay. Okay. We did quite a lot in the sports space because that's what myself and, and Adam. Again, my best friend who I met at the first joint, oh, he went along. He, he, he got me the job. He got me the job. He's now MD of that business. Oh, wow. And there's 80 people. I came in 20th. He's, he's got 80, 90 people working there. And no other salesman could or saleswoman, I don't think we ever had a salesman. No other salesman or salesperson within that role could hold down the job. They could not do it. They either left or were fired. Because they were just shocking, which again is interesting. Adam and I are the only people that could, that didn't end up leaving. Wow. And I think do think that's something to do with the conditioning of hammering home and the thick skin and the resilience and hearing the word no. 190 times a day just makes it normal. So I'm very thankful, although I'm, you know, I'm, I'm talking bad about this, this role, it was a horrendous job that I'm very thankful that I had that first job. Anyway, so I started posting on, on Instagram because, you know, I knew sales from, from the get go. I didn't know marketing. And that's why it took me two years to convince Adam to give me a job. When he finally did, he was like, well, just won't expect much of you from the first year. Just come in. Um, and yeah, I got a deal in my first month and the, the MD at the time was like, wow, okay, cool. He, he clearly knows what he's doing. I didn't, I just knew I had to sell. Mm-hmm. So then when I started learning the content, I became very interested in the design and the video and all these different things that we were able to do, and the marketing journey as a whole. So I started posting my own sort of sales and content related content on Instagram. Having blocked everyone from work no one could see me. Like I just, that fear of showing up and fear of judgement and things definitely got in the way and it stopped me for a while. And then, yeah, it just, I had a couple of people reach out and say, can you help me with sales? Or can you help me with content? Charge 'em a very low rate. So I wore my first couple of clients while I was still full-time sort of employed. And then I spoke to someone else who was in the space and they were like, oh, you're charging far too little. So I literally put zero on my price. The next time I was on a call with someone and they paid in full.

[00:18:13] Melissa: While you 10 Xed it, you literally 10 X Xed? 

[00:18:15] Chris: Yeah, I get offered a bit more as well, but just in my, in my way of thinking, I was just like, what's she gonna say? No. Like I've got a full-time job anyway. It doesn't matter. Yeah. And she said, yeah, I'm paid in full on the call. And I was like, right. Look to Amy like, there's something here. I think we may be able to do something here. So then I started a hybrid program with a course called Community Group and one-to-One, and that's called Content to Clients. Started that 13 months ago and yeah, got a few people on board, started getting some results and that just like halfway through the year when I did leave that job, which I actually left through a couple of family tragedies that happened last year. But when I left that job, it took three months and it just went off the chain.

[00:18:57] Melissa: So leaving your job allowed you to focus, put all your energy into this space, right?

[00:19:03] Chris: Yeah. That was the big difference. Yeah. Same as like we were just speaking before off the camera about how meant to do a boxing match early March, and I can't, I, I've done something to my shoulder, so I'm very doubtful I'm gonna be able to do it. But again, that's been eating some of my energy up and I think that's why my sleep's been affected and different, different things. And now I know that. I don't have to focus on that and it's not a worry. That's just like the day job was like a niggle all the time I was doing things. Just something, the power of like the singular focus is just, it's changed my life and I'm kind of, in a way, I'm seeing the silver line and that I don't have to do a boxing match and again, I can just focus on family in this.

[00:19:39] Melissa: I love that you mentioned the single focus, right? Because I think that's really important to have that single focus. But something that I've been toying with recently as I'm navigating my own kind of burnout right now is noticing that with single focus, the danger of single focus, cuz everything has a pro and a con, right? The danger for me about single focus is when I ignore the nickel. I have a, something niggling in me. Mm. And I'm like, wait, wait, hang on. I can't look there because I'm singular focused. That's when it gets dangerous. So everybody talks about work-life balance. I don't really think there's such a thing as work-life balance. I think it's more about integration. I think it's more about being aware. Like taking notice of what is going on and having the right, uh, systems in place, the right protocols so that we can take care of these little red flags. Or maybe we don't even know they're red flags yet. Maybe they're just little flags and we have like, okay, you know, three strikes and you're out, kind of measure. So niggle the first time I'm like, no, no, no. I'm a single of focus here. Same niggle for the second time. I'm like, Okay, I'm kind of hearing you, but No, I'm gonna say still on my track, single focus, but the third time it shows up, then these are the steps I need to take. And I'm learning all about systems from you, Chris, and now applying it like this concept right now in this conversation. Just free-flowing, applying this concept of how systems are so important. Yes, to keep us hyper focused and productive, but it's almost like in contradictory terms, we need another system to allow us to be aware and also be in flow. So that we can put an intervention in if we become too rigid within our system. What are your thoughts around that? Is that what you're building in now as well?

[00:21:23] Chris: Oh, I love the word intervention. That's my default is if I am committing a certain bad behaviour. I don't have, if commit, if I'm doing a bad behavior, I can't think of the right word. Yes. Ok. And I will put steps in place to make sure I cannot commit that offence again. Yeah. Overuse of social media. So I now have an app that just plugs in at 7:00 PM every night till 9:00 AM the next day. Mm-hmm. I can't touch social media. I cannot go on anything on my phone. I can go on my laptop if I needed to. That's been a bit of a game changer in terms of getting sleep. I also know that if I don't fill this up the minute I wake up.

[00:21:57] Melissa: For those of you listening, Chris is holding up a, oh, sorry. Yeah, absolutely. A gigantic gargantuan bottle that he drinks water Out of how many litres in there? It's the size of his head. That's 2.2. 2.2 litres.

[00:22:10] Chris: Okay. I know if I don't fill that up, I won't drink my water for the day.

[00:22:14] Chris: I also know I won't have my, uh, vitamins and there are various different things that I have to put in place. These are all systems I know if I wake up and just tick a few different things. I've got my nicotine patches here. I have to. Put one of those on very early to make sure that I don't get food cravings to replace the nicotine because I'm six weeks off. Wow. Congratulations. That my e-cigarette. That's great. Thank you. Yeah. Big step for me. So seven years and then cold Turkey. Completely. So yeah, different things that you have to have these systems in place, but as you mentioned that word, I'm all about restricting oneself. So you've got a smaller area to play in, but it's actually the area that you wanna play in.

[00:22:51] Melissa: I'm kind of draw this analogy cuz earlier on you were like, you've got 900 nos, right? You've got 900 nos. You get a no or no a no, and it's the nos are leading you somewhere, and I always like to play with this whole, A rejection is essentially a redirection. Everybody's always looking for yeses, but people forget that the nos are also leading you into the right place. It's also this concept of failure, right? People are so afraid to fail, but people forget that we're successful as a result of many failures. Because if we don't try, we don't know. And so how I see perceived that you put systems up is to ensure that you don't do certain things so that you can focus on the things that are good for you. Having really, really good boundaries. And I can't say, I can't tell people enough on this episode right now, how amazing your systems are. They are an absolute gift, and that's one thing that I know that you are extremely generous with in terms of providing value. Not just providing, but delivering it. And I'm not just even talking about anybody that's in your program. It's like the stuff that you give away that's you make available on your different platforms, whether it's Instagram or LinkedIn. So folks, I've got nothing to benefit sort of. Financially, if you like, from this. I really, really champion what Chris is doing because he is so focused on the entrepreneur journey is, let's not lie, right? It's fucking hard. Probably have to bleep that out later. And wellbeing and mental health is something that. We can never talk enough about. And the thing is, once you implement systems and you have this way of delivering lots of different systems, different ways of approaching situations, cause there's no one size fits all. That's the other thing I love about the way you do things, Chris. You serve and you accommodate actually very many different types. Of people. At least that's how I, how I perceive it. Mm-hmm. Cause there's a lot of things that you've given that I'm kinda like, mm, no, but I'll find something else within your toolbox that I can implement or that I can tweak. And there's a very kind of very open-minded energy that you come. There's no like ownership. It's that like, this is mine. I own it. You can't change it. You can't tweak it. You're constantly, Giving permission and reminding everybody to actually be curious about it, to make it work for them. This is just a starting point. This is something that works for you. Where do you think this fearlessness you have comes from, this resilience that you have for the word no? Have you? Any idea where it comes from? 

[00:25:15] Chris: Well, it comes from here in it so many times I think. Right? Okay. Yeah, I think I've heard the word. I do not care. When I hear it, I'm just like, all right, I'll hop on sales calls with people and I'll actively try and convince them not to work with me. Now if I think there's any reason, I'll try and get them to like, I'm, I'm saying no to them in a scenario where normally it would, it should only be them saying no to me. And again, that just comes from the experience. It's the reps like that. No muscle. Grows, the more times you go to the gym, your muscle grows. The more times you hear the word no, I think your skin thickness grows. And it's almost like they just start to bounce off you when you hear it. That's the problem I think with most people starting out, is they're starting out, they've not heard the word no. So when they do first hear it, and they'll probably hear it quite early on. No, someone said, no, maybe I shouldn't do this. Similar to me in those jobs that I just mentioned, you know, I went in, I either struggled with something or had an initial loss or a failure, and it's like, oh, I can't do this. Nope, it's not for me. But people I think take, really think about the word no as a loss. You can't get any closer to a win than the word no, because it's just building and building and building. And you look at all these successful billionaires they probably had, not to just judge 'em off money, but it's an easy thing to do. Like they've probably had 20 ideas that have failed before they got to idea number 21 and it worked and it's this, people expect this overnight success, don't they? Saying overnight success takes 10 years. Yes, it really does. Um, longer than that, I heard someone talking about it recently. People are so quick to thinking like days or weeks when they should be thinking in decades. So when you let a single no affect you, you are zoning in on like half an hour of your entire life. Yeah. Of 80 years, let's say. Mm. That's quite powerful when you start to think about if you sort of lined up the size and we did a circle for the 30 minutes and a circle for even half your life, 40 years, how big and how small, like those different things will be. I think that's what you're allowing to affect you if you let one know sway your trajectory in any way.

[00:27:24] Melissa: Wow. That's gold. We just let that land, right. The context of the timeline and the other things also, you know, we look at other people's success, right? All we see is the success. You should see the success, as you mentioned, we don't see what they've been through. We don't see the thousands of nos they had, the the ideas that died, the number of times they may be presented that final idea to people and you have stories, right? You have Dyson's one person, I can think of James Dyson with a Bagless who vacuum cleaner. I mean, how crazy is that? Right? And now look at him, and I'll go into something that, that's not an invention per se, but one person one day looked at the moon and went. I'm gonna put man up there. I mean, even now I think that's crazy. I look at the moon and I wonder How on earth do we put.

[00:28:16] Chris: Oh, it's incomprehensible, isn't it? 

[00:28:17] Melissa: It's still in my mind, still impossible yet. It's been proven otherwise. So, I mean, you've already given so much golden nuggets, so much advice already out, but what would you give us a tip to somebody who, who is gonna fall into that self-doubt, right? Who is going to crumble under that? No, you've given the contact. I feel like I'm being greedy cuz you've already given so much. But I'm just wondering, is there one core thing? Because I think even with you, you said, ah, you face fear every now and then, right? You're like, ah, no, I just don't wanna do this, or I haven't got what it takes. Right. What was it that got you through it? That keeps getting you through your fear. 

[00:28:55] Chris: There are a few different things, right? You can deal with the comparison thing, I think quite easily when you just start to, I think I'm quite good at removing emotions from a lot of things, which helps a lot, is just to be able to step back and almost with anything, anything that happens good or bad is not celebrate. Or like not be too happy or too sad. Mm-hmm. It's just, this is what it is, and that's a hard mindset to sort of get into. Looking at the comparison side of things, I told a story a while ago, which Jill thought was brilliant, so I used to run quite a bit and I would run the same like five K or eight K route. I can't remember near my house, pretty much same time, three or four days a week, same time a day. And I would always come across this guy who was slightly older than me, slightly more overweight than me, and I'd always end up overtaking it. Okay. And a lot of the time, especially at the start, I would think, oh, I'm fit than this guy. I don't know why these thoughts came into my mind, but it's like if we had a race, I'd definitely beat this guy. And you start making all these assumptions. Anyway, I can't remember the order of it, but I ended up doing a half marathon once. Mm-hmm. And I was getting to like mile, uh, no, it will be kilometer, like 19 or 20, right near the end. And I am done. I am absolutely, ugh. Applauding, like horrendously, like just can't even see, like probably spit all over my face, just like breathing heavy or whatever. And this guy overtakes me. Oh. Right, and the reason I mentioned this and I was just like, I can't believe it, and I had no energy to, it didn't matter. Like this wasn't even a race. He just happened to be running his normal route. I'd changed mine up, he overtook me. But that made me think like all these thoughts that I'd had previously. I've been thinking I can beat this guy, or if it came down to it, this, that and the other. I didn't know his backstory. And this really hit home like this is why there's no point ever comparing yourself because there are too many variables. I didn't know his age. I didn't know if he just had knee surgery. I didn't know. If like the day he overtook me, if he'd just run 20 kilometres first and I was on the first kilometre, so obviously I'm gonna be fresher and faster. Yeah. I didn't know how much he weighed. I thought he weighed more. So there were all, he might just had an argument with his wife, whatever it is. So this is why it's pointless and you just like, you should only focus on, oh, if I'm doing a half marathon, did I beat my time from last time? Or you might not even want to, you might actually, everyone's like, you should only compete with yourself. You know what, you don't even have to compete with yourself. Like, why is it a composition all the time? Yeah. Just do what you wanna do. Just have a slow two k run if you want. If not, go and compete on a do a full marathon. It doesn't matter. And that's, I think people get too hung up on this. I certainly did like progress, progress, progress, just showing up and going for the run and doing any kind of run. Is progress because you've not given up. Mm-hmm. So that's one area that I think I took a massive learning from. That guy overtaking me and I'm so glad it happened. I'll definitely beat him in a race.

[00:31:53] Melissa: Oh look, we've come back again. Love it.

[00:31:56] Chris: I'm gonna go out and find him. But the fact that I, maybe I could beat him in a race doesn't actually matter. So stop creating an imaginary race is the big learning. And there are too many variables. And how do I overcome fear? You overcome fear by, I think doing and putting reps in. And when you do something enough times, your confidence grows. Now, this isn't to say, I don't think that you can ever fully get rid of fear. I had a, a fear. Filled morning on Friday. I was just like questioning things like, oh, I'm doing this wrong. I've been doing it wrong for ages. I should be doing this. Or Why am I not doing this? I can't remember what it was and if I could, I don't know if I'll go into detail about it, but I think expecting it. Expecting that expect you are gonna question yourself. Mm-hmm. Expecting like big blockers are gonna come up, especially if we're talking anything but entrepreneurial journey for one. Like expecting that things are, things are gonna come along that make you question yourself. One thing I always do when I set out and try something new now. Just so I don't fall into that day one at the new job trap of going into the toilets and questioning my whole existence is I will make a conscious decision not to bother measuring anything on day one, not to even measure anything on day 10, measure it on day 90, as I say, instead of singular hours, let's talk in decades. Okay, so what's the point of just going, oh, this didn't work. Now if I could do it with some ads that I'm running right now, I'm on like day 20 of running ads and like the price has skyrocketed or whatever, and I'm just like, this doesn't work. Pull a plug. Like, but you don't actually, no, it doesn't work. Cause you've only done it 20 times. Like do it a hundred times, then you've got more data. And I think people are very reactive and make emotional decisions where they still should be reactive. Of course. Yeah. But it should be over a longer period of time, which allows you to collect more data and approach it from a position of logic rather than emotion.

[00:33:47] Melissa: Key failure is feedback. Essentially it's failure is just collecting data. Collecting data and separating the emotion is important, especially when we're talking about business. We're talking about business here. We're talking about entrepreneurship here, right? Mm. And of course, we're gonna get emotional because it's our baby. For many of us, we're putting our life savings into it, or we're putting our heart and soul into it. We have to know. We have to understand that when we are reactive through our emotions, it's more likely to do damage than it is to do any good. So to have the right tools to kind of. I don't wanna say compartmentalise, but find a way to process that energy. Maybe it's go boxing, expend it. Yeah. Maybe it's go for a run. Maybe it's have a dance. Maybe it's listen to music. Maybe it's to talk to someone. Maybe it's to be part of wait for the plug. But I mean this in the bottom of my heart. Be part of a beautiful hybrid mentoring, coaching community where you can show up as yourself. That's what I've done recently. Just kind of say, no, I'm questioning everything right now. I'm being reminded that this is part of. The process. Process, not just of being an entrepreneur, but it's actually part of the process of being a freaking human being. Mm. Where living seasons and cycles. Well, thank you Chris for sharing what you do with overcoming fear. And the key part actually, it really stood out for me personally, it resonated with me, is when you said you are not saying that you can ever overcome it. And I would agree with you cuz sort of, I'm not a doctor, but I do know we're wired for fear. And if there's that one thing we don't need to worry about is fear, right? Mm-hmm. In fact, I always say that when you feel the fear, you are on the right track. I agree. Because you're literally on the precipice of something. Cause normally we fear the unknown. Well, duh, it's not, not, we've not done it before, so duh. Obviously we feel fear. So if we can let go, like you said, of that sort of emotional attachment to ultimately failure, right? My mom always says, if you don't try, you'll never know. 

[00:35:45] Chris: Hmm, exactly. But also if you don't try, the answer will always be no. Cool. Absolutely. That's a big one for me. So it's just like, oh, I'm, I have clients and conversations where it's like, I'm scared to do this because of X, and it's just like the cost of inaction is worse than trade because it's always a no when you don't try. If you do try, there's a good chance of a yes. So yeah, really, really powerful stuff. And again, comes back to like the sleep. It's so fundamental. There are all these little, little hit like tips and tricks and hacks that sit in between things, but if we can focus on the fundamentals, um, it makes it just so, so powerful. Absolutely. You mentioned as well, like. What to do when the fear hits, which is a, a big thing. I think moving away and not making any decision whatsoever, good or bad, whether that's you're postpone it, basically postpone your decision. Something bad happens to you today, this week, and you are forced to make a decision. Don't make it there and then delay it for five minutes, an hour, two days, whatever it is, because. When you hear news or you are faced with something, that's when your emotive state is at its heights because you are reacting straight away mentally, physically, whatever it is, you are reacting straight away, but you don't have to fully react. You can let that, as you say, internalise that feeling and then go, okay, what would the logical next step be if I wasn't annoyed, scared, angry about this thing? And I think that helps a lot. And like you say, talking to people, talking to someone, I've just got a new mentor that. This ultimately is helping me across everything, and I called her a business therapist, joking to her and she liked it and she laughed. And then, yeah, I said, she's like, so what do you want? I think she was quite conscious of making sure that I got value out of every session, and I had to say to her, I was like, look, I don't necessarily need anything actionable or any value. I was like, I just need to turn up. Talk shit to you about my business for 90, 95% of the time, get 5% back where you go, have you tried this? And that's enough. But just the fact that I, I'm talking about it is enough for me to get value because I don't sit down with anyone else who will listen and talk about it and just. Again, it doesn't even have to be talking about it to someone else. I used to write things down. That's a big thing as well that really helps you get stuff off your chest is just sit down and go, I am having this problem because of X. The things that I can do to solve it are A, B, and c. I will make a decision on these in two days time. And that kind of like almost shuts the door on it for a little bit. Mm-hmm. And that could take you two minutes. So literally, if I get into a scenario an hour where I'm really. Feeling anxious or stressed about something, I will write down almost like I'm trying to explain it to someone else, like writing a letter to you almost. Melissa, this, I'm struggling with this. Here's the reasons why. I'm not sure what I should do, but here are the options, but things that I could do. That's a game changer. I'm telling you now, because not many people do it. I know they don't, and I wish I'd started doing it ages ago, like years ago. And it really, really helps.

[00:38:46] Melissa: I love that you mentioned that, talking to this part of you, talking to your fear actually. That sounds like what it is, right? You're journaling it. Yeah. First of all, you are decompressing, so you're that powerful energy is not stuck in you. You're letting it out. And you just mentioned as if you were writing to me, in essence, you are writing to or you are listening to a part of you and that part of you is Chris in fear like you would do for a friend, but we don't do it for ourselves.

[00:39:13] Chris: I've heard this before as well. Yeah. So you write a letter as if you are writing it to your best friend, but you just put your name at the top and you're like to Chris. I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling with this at the moment. If I was facing the situation, here's what I would probably advise and try and look at it from. If you were giving the advice to a friend, I can't remember who said that. I thought that was really good. Oh, I heard that a while ago actually.

[00:39:34] Melissa: He's all powerful to us. Yeah. So before we wrap things up, cuz you know I talked to you, we could talk for literally days. Months. And maybe I'll need to bring you back for another podcast session, Chris, but before we wrap things up, I would love you to just tell everybody a little bit more about Content to Clients. Okay. Like you could break it down. Who is it for? I was gonna say, what are the features and benefits, but really who is it for and what does it look and feel like? 

[00:40:03] Chris: Mm, okay. So Content to Clients is a six month hybrid sort of mentorship program that we run. It's for coaches and freelancers and creatives and consultants and small business owners who want to win more clients online using organic content as sort of the main attraction method, if you will. So we sit down and work across three key phases, or there could be five, I suppose, but three key phases. So first of all, we get the offer, right? So what are people selling? What does the messaging look like? After that, we go into marketing. So how can we create sort of an intentional content strategy that meets a number of different objectives, usually three. And then after that, it's how do we turn some of that attention into leads and and sales? And that's underpinned by. This mindset that we seem to have talked a lot on, but also underpinned heavily by systems because your mindset, I feel, can relax and is in a better state when you have systems working for you and you fall back, or you fall down to that level as James Claire says. So what does it look like? It looks like me helping you out a bit, the community helping you out. A hell of a lot it looks like. Access to what I will say as like world class tutorials. I've been in all sorts of programs and I've engineered this to be better than every single one that I've been in in terms of the quality of the material. Yeah. And also just the look and feel of the material as well. And I know that, like, I've not been in every program, but I've been in competitor programs and I know Yeah. I've seen them. Um, so it looks like, yeah. DM and community access. Mm-hmm. It looks like. Just fun as well. Even though it's hard work. We have fun. Yeah. And there are 45 to 50 business owners in the mix now. Wow. That from all over the globe. They've all invested four figures. They've all come to absolutely crush it, and they've all got the same problems as each other. Yeah. Which when you put a load of creative people into a space who have the same problem, you know, that problem's getting solved. Quite creatively as well. So that's what it looks and feels like.

[00:42:08] Melissa: Of course. I know cuz I'm in it. I'm still currently, I think I'm on the tail end of it and I love being there and I'll will say that what I love is that it can honour my own seasons and cycles. So I've got one month where I'm like in it, I'm like a super active in there and then I can pull away and I can tweak my level of engagement and still feel that I'm part of the community. I still feel like I can contribute, still feel that I can receive a different action. It's almost like a passive action because the content is so beautifully delivered in this platform. They're very important key settings I can put to manage my own wellbeing, and I know that's something that you have a high respect and value for within the community. But the key part for me is that it is growing organically cuz Chris, as you've already heard from this conversation, he's really passionate about what he does and everything that you learn, whether daily, weekly, monthly, you pour back in and. To this program. So it's organic, it's constantly growing and evolving and so we're part of something that is alive. It's not stagnant. It's ever evolving and that's one of my favourite parts of it. I mean, apart from beginning to hang out with you Chris, cuz you are incredible. You are definitely somebody I admire, I have very high respect for. So I'm excited that you said yes to be on the podcast. And before we wrap up, I asked you what song you would be, if you could be any song. Right. And you said either Anti Up remix by M O P or let it be by the Beatles. Yeah. I thought that was a good combo of songs actually Anti Up remix by M O P or Let it Be by the Beatles. Can you tell us why? 

[00:43:46] Chris: Yeah, so one's all about stillness, makes me think of family, and I think the other one is, Well, it's just maximum violence. That song, it's all about robbing people. Well, I don't necessarily mean that that's what I would go and do. I mean like that's the energy. So it's like if I walked out to a boxing match, I would have that to get me hyped and get me ready and just be relentless and ruthless. Whereas on the other side, you've gotta have that. Just mellow, chilled, thoughtful side. So I couldn't pick a song. I couldn't pick a song. It would be, and my whole mind state is somewhere either at one of those ends or in between. It's like bull on because you have to be this way in business. Like you have to go like fucking nuts some days and just take no prisoners. But other days it's very much right step back reflect what do we need to do? What went right, what didn't, that kind of thing. And I'm not being true to myself. Am I serving myself the way I need to and I serving the people around me the way that I, they expect me to, and they, what do they need from me? That kind of thing. Which is very much the let it be. I think I got let it go from frozen, which I definitely wouldn't list as as one. Would there go? Yeah, my daughter would. Lemme do that. But let it be is. Yeah. It makes me think parents as well. Because they're both huge Beatles fans. I've got let it be tattooed there under a picture of my mum as well. So yeah, somewhere in between those two realms, you'll find me either doing damage or lying down. Meditate.

[00:45:11] Melissa: I love that. I love that broad spectrum because it is a reminder that we're not one dimensional. Mm. We are on a spectrum. And in that sense, we can be it all. We can have it all. It's just ensuring that we're constantly, of course, I'm gonna throw this in. We're fearlessly curious about where we are at any given moment in time and what is within my capability right now to do so. When you're burnt out, what can you do right now? Right? When you're not sleeping, what can you do right now? Right? When you're feeling overwhelmed, what can I do right now when I'm feeling I'm in doubt, I'm in fear. Just focus on right now when I fails, when I'm being rejected, what can I do? Right now. Each time it's gonna be different, but we gotta stay curious and we gotta stay, I think authentic to who we are. Any closing thoughts, Chris? 

[00:46:02] Chris: Closing thoughts. Yeah. I wanna say thank you for all the kind words and, and fire them right back at you first and foremost, because you've said some very nice stuff about me and I, I wanna let you know how much of a legend you are and how much respect I've got for you and how much I value your opinion. So, and just say, thank you for having me on. I asked to come on this podcast for a reason, right. I get quite a few fired at me and I, I don't really have the time, but I wanted to be featured on this, so thank you, because I knew it would bring out a different type of conversation to what kind of sales and marketing hacks have you got? That kind of thing. Final closing words. If we look at being fearlessly curious, I mean, for me, you have to be like that relentless. Approach is we don't know what's around the corner, so we need to act accordingly based on the information that that we sort of, we already have. I think there are two things. One is like stepping back. Before you react. I think that's something we've covered that I do almost without thinking now. And it would be great to remain curious. It's probably not just acting on a whim all the time, but it also is some of the time. So it's getting to know yourself, isn't it? And being curious about yourself. And I think that's where the writing things down comes into it. Like, interrogate your thoughts. Why are you thinking this way? That's where curious should come into it. Like, interrogate yourself. Why am I acting like this? Because you and your brain aren't the same person. Like your brain's gonna try and trick you and pull like the wool down over your eyes and, and make you stay in this place of comfort where actually you need to be fearless and you need to be curious. So there's one thing. The other thing, and I'm kind of just making this up, go along, but you're on the fly, man. You're on fire. I think there's no point doing something, whatever it is, with fear, even if you feel fear. So look at some of the highest performers in sports, for example, I know we talk about boxing a lot cuz I talk about boxing a lot. But even like Muhammad Ali, I don't know how many fights he had, but do you think he wasn't afraid before he went into those fights? He was shitting himself?

[00:47:56] Melissa: Yeah, definitely shitting himself. 

[00:47:58] Chris: Yeah, he was. And that's the man who's already done the do right? He's done the dance a hundred times. He knows exactly what happens. He's still nervous. So who's anyone else in this whole world? Who are you to go? Arrogant enough, or I expect enough of myself to not be afraid when I walk into this situation if the bloody one of the best boxes in the world was scared when he went into his situations. When he went into his fights. So appreciate and expect that. Feeling fear is completely normal and I don't think you will ever rid yourself of it. However, you can probably dumb it down and make it smaller and push it to one side through doing the reps. But the first time you go into doing something, fear will be at its height. Are you gonna let that stop you? That's the question. I think.

[00:48:44] Melissa: Thank you, Chris. Interrogating yourself. That stuck with me. And that you and your brain are not the same, right? Your brain starts constantly gonna mess with. Right. And doing things with fear because the greatest people, I mean the greatest, literally Muhammad Ali. Mm-hmm. Right. We need to have some level of fear that I'm gonna lose this. I'm gonna lose title, lose this fight because that's gonna be the fire that. Possibly is gonna push us the extra mile whether we fail or not. It becomes irrelevant because as we mentioned earlier, failure store feedback, we're still gonna discover the complexity of why something works or fails. Like you mentioned the guy that you were supposedly thinking that you were much better at, and then he ran past you, right? Because there's so many variables we don't know about. So we just gotta focus on what's now in the present moment, what we can do now. In the face of fear. Chris, it has been amazing having you on The Fearlessly Curious Podcast. Thank you so, so much. Folks, you wanna know more about Chris, you know where to go and, and the information, all the ways that he can contact Chris gonna be on LinkedIn, Instagram, and his YouTube channel, which I encourage you to go and watch cuz his video content is explosive. Make sure you give him a follow and. Give yourself a gift today to receive all the incredible wisdom that he has for you, not just about making content, not just about sales and marketing, but just being brave in the face of fear. Thank you, Chris. 

[00:50:08] Chris: Thank you very much for having me. Thanks for listening as well, guys. Until the next episode, ciao.

[00:50:19] Melissa: If you want more, make sure to subscribe so you never miss a new episode every Friday. And please leave a review. If you enjoy this episode. Don't forget to send me your curious questions and experiences as inspiration for future episodes. Your anonymity will be respected if that's what you prefer. For more guidance and support, join my emotional healing, mindfulness and music community over at melissaindot.com. See you next week.