Fearlessly Curious
Fearlessly Curious
S02E07 - Challenging Stereotypes and Breaking Barriers - Dr Hannah Nazri’s inspiring Journey
What societal stereotypes are blocking your path to success?
Are they possible to overcome?
In this episode of the Fearlessly Curious Podcast, host I welcome Dr. Hannah Nazri, a passionate obstetrician, gynecologist, academic, and advocate.
Dr. Hannah shares her inspiring journey from childhood to becoming a pioneering voice in women's health and education. We discuss the influence of her parents, the struggles she faced due to societal expectations, and her relentless pursuit of her dreams.
Dr. Hannah emphasises the importance of understanding one's own body, advocating for women's health, and the role of education and research
in driving change. Join us for an enlightening conversation on perseverance, breaking stereotypes, and following one's heart.
Dr. Nazri's journey is a powerful reminder that self-belief and perseverance can enable us to break free from societal constructs and pursue our dreams.
As I like to put it, life is too short to play safe – we must follow our hearts and remain fearlessly curious.
Connect with Dr Hannah Nazri :
Website : https://hannah.nazri.org/
LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannahnazri/
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/hannahnazri/
Resources:
Join my fearlessly curious community and SIGN UP to JOIN my Fearlessly Authentic Living Community Newsletters for real client success stories and life strategies, reflections, contemplations and support you won't find anywhere else.
If you enjoy this episode, please SHARE, RATE and REVIEW the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
About Me:
I help you lead with fearless authenticity by smashing the self-imposed heteronormative stereotypes that keep you playing small through emotional healing inner child and inherited intergenerational trauma.
Create a purposeful life of your unique design by disrupting societal norms and expectations of who you should be.
Explore mindfulness, music, fearless curiosity and loving kindness through the lens of Human Design to thrive as the person you are born to be.
Learn more about my coaching method and join my emotional healing, mindfulness, and music community at melissaindot.com.
[00:00:00]
[00:00:01] Melissa Indot: And welcome to another episode of the Fearlessly Curious Podcast with me, your host, Melissa Indart. And today I'm super excited to have our guest, Dr. Hannah Nazri. Hannah, thank you for joining us today.
[00:00:15] Dr Hannah Nazri: A great pleasure to join us today's podcast. Thank you, Melissa, for inviting me. Of course,
[00:00:21] Melissa Indot: of course, my pleasure.
[00:00:22] And it's been a long time coming. I think we've known each other probably for about two years now. We still haven't had the opportunity to meet IRL in real life, but I know that's coming soon. And I am an avid. Fan, follower inspired by your mission, your work, everything that you commit yourself so fully in.
[00:00:45] I admire the way you seem to juggle so much, in terms of academia, in terms of practice, in terms of as a writer, I know you have a very active blog and in all the work you do with advocacy. But without wasting any more time listening to my voice, I'm literally going to hand it over to you first, Hannahh, with this prompt.
[00:01:07] Okay. Which is what is it in life? What is it in your childhood? I should say. That led you towards being the person you are today? Small question, Hannahh, just a small question.
[00:01:22] Dr Hannah Nazri: A small question, but probably something that it's thinking about. So I've thought about this question, like what exactly in my childhood has led me to become what I am today?
[00:01:33] And I have to say, I'm thankful to my parents, firstly, And I remembered my father and my mom, especially getting me interested in science at a very young age. And I know that comes with privilege. Not everyone has the same opportunities I had as a child. And I think, given the current climate in Malaysia as well, and I remembered when I was 11 asking people what they would do.
[00:02:02] For their secondary school. I remembered telling someone I'll be going to this boarding school and it's all very exciting and I remembered a friend of mine saying that, Oh I can't do that because I'm Chinese. This is probably a controversial topic, but I don't think it is. I think everyone should receive the equal opportunity to pursue their education.
[00:02:24] In the best place possible and it should be based on merit, but of course that's a topic for another time and that has shaped the person I am today. I truly believe in making a small positive difference in the lives of people I meet and I try to do that the best I can. I can with whatever talent and energy that I have.
[00:02:50] Melissa Indot: Thank you. And you certainly do that. For those of you who are new to Dr. Hannahh's work there will be lots of information in the podcast and podcast content, but for now, while we have. The incredible lady here with us live, Dr. Hannah, if you could just let, share with us a little bit of what it is that you do today, and then I'm going to take you, take us through a little bit of your origin story.
[00:03:15] I'm going to invite you to share your origin story, but first of all, what are you active with today?
[00:03:20] Dr Hannah Nazri: So I'm mainly a clinician. I'm a trainee obstetrician and gynecologist. I do a bit of academic work as well. So I did my DPhil or the PhD at the University of Oxford on endometriosis research.
[00:03:34] And I'm very passionate of bringing my research work to Malaysia and to Southeast Asia. And I do a lot of work trying to organize collaborative work between universities in Malaysia and as well as in the UK. And I am passionate about ending female genital mutilation. So you've probably seen a lot of my work or my blog on female circumcision.
[00:03:56] And its practices in Southeast Asia. And I work a lot with our Southeast Asian counterparts as well trying to end this practice. But otherwise I consider them as my hobby. Probably I should need better hobbies that don't involve work, but that's another topic for another time.
[00:04:13] Melissa Indot: You know what they say, if you love what you love, what you do, then it's not considered work.
[00:04:16] And it seems you're very, you're clearly very passion driven. And so I'm curious to know, so you're Malaysian born, is that right? Yes. And now you live in the UK and you're working out of the UK.
[00:04:29] Dr Hannah Nazri: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was born in Kuala Lumpur to an accountant and a homemaker. And my mom, my parents both are university educated.
[00:04:41] So my mom was a bit of a tiger mom. She made me do a lot of mathematics and science questions and all sorts when I was, five, believe it or not. I used to be very scared of her, but one day I told her like, you know what, I know how to study myself, so let me do it independently, so she let me do all of that.
[00:05:00] So you can see how at a young age my parents emphasized the importance of education, and actually they let me roll with it. When I was nine, I think I, my parents told me that I said this. I said I think it's very important for me to study because it's really important for the younger generation.
[00:05:17] I don't know when, why I said that when I was nine, but apparently I did say that. I I like studying,
[00:05:21] Melissa Indot: it seems that perhaps it's something that a quality that your parents modeled to you, both being academics, academics themselves, you said your mom was a tiger mom. So it was formal education, something that she encouraged in you, because I'm a big believer, of course, having formal education is.
[00:05:40] a privilege, as you mentioned. It's also very useful. It's very helpful for us, but not everybody gets access to that. And there is much to be valued in the education we get through life experience. So how have you found the balance between the two?
[00:05:57] Dr Hannah Nazri: Absolutely. I can I completely agree with you. Not everyone has to go to university unless they want to become doctors and you need the formal training.
[00:06:05] Absolutely. To be honest with you you're right. Education is not just from formal education. It comes from everywhere, really, from traveling. And I seriously consider each time I travel, it's a form of education for myself. I learn to meet other people, new perspectives. from different cultures, new food.
[00:06:23] All of these are really important to shape who we are as a person. I feel that it's a bit sad if people think that education is just university education.
[00:06:33] Melissa Indot: I admire the way that you leverage on the privilege that you have had and you have in the position of being a formally educated academic to share the knowledge that you have with people. What was it that has inspired you to contribute to society in this way?
[00:06:52] Dr Hannah Nazri: Personal experience seeing how people in less privileged positions get by as well.
[00:06:59] When I went to boarding school, I meet all sorts of people from all sorts of walks of life. I can see there's a huge disparity within society and I do feel that The gap is getting bigger and bigger. This is my perspective. I don't know what you think. Also with my work with FGM, seeing it done on a female relative, seeing how women suffer day to day with the huge gender pain gap we have, all of this has, That's shaped me into wanting to create more awareness about it.
[00:07:37] And I would say that I did not plan to have an organization or do a D field. To be honest with you, I just follow my heart, which probably doesn't make any sense. I follow my heart a lot in some of the decisions that I do. If I don't enjoy doing it anymore, then I would stop doing it. But it has become my life work, if that makes sense.
[00:08:01] I think my work is my passion. And that's why I I decided to do the things that I do.
[00:08:08] Melissa Indot: Wonderful. And I feel that's something that more and more of us could benefit from, which is. to follow our hearts, to follow that inner compass. Because as you mentioned, it doesn't always make sense, but the thing is nothing makes sense until it does. And in fact, isn't that what science is about? It's about discovering why things they are the way they are.
[00:08:29] If everything made sense from the start, there would be nothing to discover. There would be nothing to explore. There would be nothing to experiment with. So the fact that you are following your heart. In my book, at least seems to be the best way to be living because each of us are individuals and we have our own path to discover.
[00:08:48] And the only way that we can discover our own path is to remain fearless, be curious and really follow that inner compass we have within all of us. That doesn't make sense to other people, right? We know things as we discovered them, as we live them. So you mentioned about education. Sorry, go ahead.
[00:09:07] Dr Hannah Nazri: No I was thinking as well on that note. Like for example, I did not plan to do a PhD, honestly, and That only came about when I decided that, oh, this might be interesting and then pursued a master's and realized, oh, maybe research is for me and then decide to do a PhD. I know some people want to do a PhD from the beginning, but I wasn't like that.
[00:09:32] So I make my decisions based on a bit of logic, but most importantly, like how I feel about things as well. As you rightly say, it's very important to also follow your heart and your mind as well together. Yeah.
[00:09:46] Melissa Indot: Get that balance.
[00:09:47] Dr Hannah Nazri: Heart and mind
[00:09:49] Melissa Indot: axis, heart, mind, and gut balance or axis that we're learning more and more about following. So you mentioned about education being a privilege and that you have that, you were blessed with that, but I recall, remind me if I'm, tell me if I'm wrong, but I remember on our first call together, it was a social call.
[00:10:07] We got on Zoom. I think you'd had a crazy week or weekend of night shifts. And you hadn't had much sleep. We were on a call and you were telling me how you came, you've come from very humble beginnings. So how is it that even though being a child of academe and being born and brought up in KL, in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, how did your educational path unravel itself?
[00:10:37] How were you able to get into the schools, into the colleges and into university? And quite frankly, how are you able to afford it as a story of inspiration for others?
[00:10:47] Dr Hannah Nazri: Firstly yes, I was quite privileged. My parents emphasized the importance of education. So I got accepted to a private boarding school called College Yayasan Sa'ad.
[00:10:57] In Malacca, so actually five years of my education was fully funded and I was privileged to do all sorts of things including learning the violin and play the piano among other things as well, which I think makes is really important to have music in your life. You probably agree with me, Melissa.
[00:11:17] And I do, I did a lot of spots as well. I did very well in my SPM, although I did not receive any form of government funding, unfortunately. But my parents truly believed, believe in my mission. So they decided, my father at a time decided to take out some of his EPF loan and told me like, okay, fine do your A levels.
[00:11:43] I know you, it's your dream to want to study medicine in the UK. So that's what I did. I went to. College, Yayasan UEM, which is arguably one of the best eleven colleges in Malaysia. It is a boarding college as well. And I did very well and got accepted to do medicine. And then like we had to take out a loan because I didn't qualify for any scholarships, but it didn't really bother me as much.
[00:12:09] I felt that I was very lucky to have very supportive parents who understood my dream And they could see how I would make use of your sacrifices and make it into something useful for myself and for other people. And I hope they agree with me. I've done exactly that.
[00:12:30] Melissa Indot: What a beautiful blessing to have such supportive parents. I imagine that you being so resolute, following your heart and following your dreams and being very clear with that probably is something that they had confidence in you. For them to invest in you and in your dream too. So we've heard about all the incredible successes you've had, gaining sponsorships when they were available, maybe a few misses here and there, but staying on track and staying committed to your bigger goal and your bigger dream.
[00:13:02] What adversities. Stand out for you today, just in this session that you have had to navigate in order to get to where you are today.
[00:13:10] Dr Hannah Nazri: I think it it, it speaks a lot that my, my parents believe in my dream, but to convince other people has been like quite difficult. Even from relatives as well, they could see that I did very well, but.
[00:13:23] You get comments like I should stay in my own lane, like your parents can't afford you going to medical school. Yeah, I get all sorts of comments like that, even from some of my father's friends who are surgeons and doctors. I get that from teachers in school as well. And it's really stressful and upsetting as a 17 year old to hear all of that.
[00:13:53] I'm very, I still feel that I'm very lucky because my parents believe me. But they also face a lot of music from other people telling them not to waste your money on me or my sisters. So psychologically it was. Extremely difficult and I did not receive any funding for my medical degree until the January next year.
[00:14:18] So I started at the University of Bristol in October, as we do in the UK. We start in September and October. I remember taking my collection of coins and notes and changing them into pounds, and I remember taking very little money and I was signed off to the UK by myself. I missed the first week of Freshers Fair and basically I felt I was just put on a plane and I just arrived in the UK back then.
[00:14:48] But I survived. It was very difficult, it was very challenging, but I wouldn't dress it as like I was strong all the time. There were three weeks. times where I felt that whether I've made the right decision or I should just give up. And I'm glad I did.
[00:15:04] Melissa Indot: What was it that got you through, Hannahh? How did you keep taking the steps forward?
[00:15:10] Dr Hannah Nazri: I think I kept telling myself that I owe it to my parents to persevere and also I know that I could do better. I think I have Such a high self esteem in myself. I'd like to think although there are times I felt that Maybe everyone else is right. But if we were to apply the same logic to the same logic to everyone saying that you should stay in your lane Your parents can't afford it.
[00:15:36] You should just give up then we wouldn't see Many trailblazers today You wouldn't see You the Rosa Parks, you wouldn't see Martin Luther King challenging the status quo because we should just all stay in our lane. Let's accept the discrimination that happens because of race, because of poverty. And I, I truly believe in myself that I should persevere because I know that of my own capabilities and that's what kept me going really.
[00:16:09] Melissa Indot: Answer me like you aren't subscribed from the narrative that your peers and contemporaries and people within the community and society, family, extended members, even people within our culture at least and beyond you unsubscribed from this sort of common Narrative, collective narrative of staying in your lane of living way, living in a way that society defines a very constructed linear way of living and playing safe.
[00:16:40] And I think that's something you and I definitely have in common. Life is way too short to be playing safe. We want to play smart, right? We want to follow the calling, the intangible calling that burns within our hearts and our souls. So unsubscribing from the. collective narrative was what kept you going.
[00:16:58] And that, as you said, Hannahh, is a huge risk that you took. But the risk that you took was balanced up by the way that you were honoring The belief your family, your parents had in you, you were making, you were maximizing on the investment that they had made in you, the blind faith that they have in you too.
[00:17:22] So that's beautiful. Look, you are now living proof of what happens when we do stay in our own lane. We don't jump into somebody else's lane and follow through on your dream. Are you living your dream right now?
[00:17:37] Dr Hannah Nazri: Absolutely. I'm living my wildest dream. As a 16 year old, I couldn't imagine some of the things I would be doing today.
[00:17:45] It is a real privilege to work with women. It's a real privilege to deliver babies and welcoming life into the world. And it's a real privilege to having done a PhD in Oxford, and I feel extremely lucky. My, my work is not easy. It's very easy in medicine to get burnout, if I'm completely honest.
[00:18:07] I think when I last spoke to you, you were right. I was sleep deprived, very depressed. There are times in my life I'm just wondering, What the hell am I doing here? I'm by myself. My family's back in Malaysia. What the hell am I doing here? And it's really, but I think going through those moments are very healthy because it's Your mind, your body, your soul demands you to reflect on whether what you're doing is still in line with your life goals, your life dreams.
[00:18:34] I managed to get over that because I had a period of burnout. And knowing my vision and mission really helps me stay focused at work, even though it can get very busy or very stressful.
[00:18:45] Melissa Indot: I'd love to quote you. On something. And those of you listening or watching the YouTube get a pen and paper or pause this or make a timestamp note.
[00:18:54] Cause when I read this, I got goosebumps. So I'm quoting you, Hannahh. You said to me, if you believe in the narrative that others have constructed for you due to your socioeconomic background, then you'll never climb out of the hole they've put you in. The climbing is tough. But so are you. Hannahh, tell us, are you giving talks?
[00:19:20] I know that you speak on webinars and have given presentations, but how many more talks are you giving? Are you a motivational speaker as well? Is there some, an area that you're perhaps open to going into to add another feather onto your bow?
[00:19:35] Dr Hannah Nazri: Maybe I've been doing that for a long time. I was involved with a youth charity called the Calso Movement.
[00:19:41] So it was a small project organized by university students in the UK, Malaysian university students, where they go back every summer and have this wonderful summer camp. We try to encourage students from less privileged backgrounds to go into tertiary education. So it was a small project and I've volunteered with them for almost a decade.
[00:20:04] Where I formalized the project into a charity and was on various leadership positions. I think I've been doing that more or less, but I haven't actually considered myself as a motivational speaker. I have mentored a few people, but most of the time I'm just, an academic.
[00:20:21] Melissa Indot: She says just an academic after sharing with us all the other things that you do and you're passionate about. Like I said, again it's so special for me personally to have you here on the podcast for all our listeners and followers as well. I have to ask this question cause we're talking about, social constructs, and breaking the mold and challenging the status quo not just as women but also as Southeast Asian women. And educated women, travelers, independent women on so many levels. Okay. Malays, so they have our culture. My question to you now is, or my curiosity is, what stereotypes have you disrupted?
[00:20:58] Dr Hannah Nazri: Gosh. I think one fact that Asian women are quiet and will accept whatever abuse that's being thrown to them. That's really important. I have in many situations challenge. Some of the things that people have said about me or reported me wrongly and they think I would just put up with it.
[00:21:18] But if I feel that I'm wrong, I will speak up and let you know, and we'll put you in a new place.
[00:21:23] Melissa Indot: Perfect. I absolutely love that. So if you were a song, Hannahh. If you were a song, of course, I have to ask this right? If you were a song, what song would you be?
[00:21:32] Dr Hannah Nazri: Oh, I can think of a few, but one of it is Unwritten by Natasha Bedingfield.
[00:21:37] And I quite like the cheeky Ariana Grande Successful. It just cheers me up. I don't know why.
[00:21:44] Melissa Indot: All right, listeners, go take a listen to that. And interestingly enough, you mentioned Unwritten by Natasha Bedingfield, and I've been listening. I've been hearing that a lot. I'm in the UK at the moment as we're recording this, and I know they're actually playing it a lot on the radio right now. But it's also one of my favorite songs to listen to Hannahh, especially in those moments when I fall into self doubt or when I feel the pressure of societal conditioning kind of pulling me back into fitting in again.
[00:22:16] Into, maybe it's easier if I just follow the way that's put before me. But when I listened to, I lean into the song Unwritten because it reminds me that we are here to carve our own path. And yes, it's nice sometimes to have, to be able to see the path that's put before us, but there's a whole diversity of different paths before us.
[00:22:39] And not only do we have a plethora of choice, even when we, Don't think we have a choice that in and of itself is a choice that when we come out of our heads, we get present, we surround ourselves with people who are there to support us for who we are there to allow us to fail, allow us to experiment people like your parents and people like I'm blessed to lean into my mother and I have a handful of friends that, you Everything is unwritten until we choose to write it.
[00:23:12] Everything, and it's okay to not know, because There is so much we don't know until we know. And even when we think we know, we can always find something we don't. And that's the beautiful paradox of life. So I just want to thank you for joining us in the Fearlessly Curious podcast today. I could talk to you for a lot longer but I want to leave space for our viewers and our listeners to be able.
[00:23:38] able to discover you on their own time, on their own terms, through your socials, most importantly, through your website, through your blog. You're able to find all the information on the podcast episode. But before you leave us, Hannahh, I'd love for you to share with us, what is the most pressing topic?
[00:23:55] In your heart that you're advocating for right now, that you want to raise awareness for right now, that you want to empower each and every individual who's listening to this podcast to know, to learn more about so that they can contribute to making change. What is the biggest topic in your heart right now?
[00:24:14] Dr Hannah Nazri: The biggest topic in my heart would be trying to encourage more research into women's health, especially in Asian population and especially in Southeast Asian population. So I've been to a few conferences on the Demetriosis, for example, and I hardly see any research done on Southeast Asian women.
[00:24:31] It's something that I want to change to improve gynecological health. in Malaysia to talk more about endometriosis, talk more about menopause health as
[00:24:40] Melissa Indot: well. I'll certainly be keeping in touch with you on that because I, in, on my own perimenopause and menopause journey, I very recently discovered how recent it was that first of all, health data on health was basically based, was wholly based on the male physiology and to probably in the last 50 years, if I remember correctly and women's health, less than that and menopause research, probably only in the last 20 years.
[00:25:10] That gave me, that was shocking for me, but it also gave me an opportunity to really look to my. My mother to my aunties to my grandmother and in admiration of how it has been for them to navigate these really extreme physiological changes physical, physiological, mental, emotional changes with absolutely no support whatsoever, because even with the minimal support I feel I have today, I struggle.
[00:25:45] So I. definitely support you in your advocacy for that. And can you tell us how do we encourage for more research? What can we do? What can the lay woman do, lay man do out there?
[00:25:57] Dr Hannah Nazri: We should definitely for the lay person is to understand your own bodies and how they work most importantly.
[00:26:03] And certainly I've seen that many women don't quite understand the menstrual cycle, for example. They don't quite understand that the pain that they have is not normal and they don't exactly blame them for that because pain for women is actually normalized in our society, even by doctors as well.
[00:26:20] You may get guest lit by your own doctor seeing that it's completely normal. Go back. So number one, understanding about your own pain, understanding your own body is really important. Number two is get involved in research. So definitely look into whether non profit organizations or universities where they recruit women for research.
[00:26:39] definitely contribute to those research if you can get involved. And number three is to be active within women's health organizations. There's one such in Malaysia called Endosis Malaysia. That's actually a patient based organization for endometriosis. I don't think we have a menopause society, but I could be wrong.
[00:27:00] It's very important for not just patients, but doctors. The community to understand that women's health does not only impact women, but the family, their partners and the society as a whole. And it has a huge economic burden to society.
[00:27:15] Melissa Indot: Thank you, Hannahh. I think I'm going to need to invite you back on the podcast for another conversation, just on this alone. If I could just add a final sort of magic. Or encompassing envelope over what the three points directions you've given us is just to remain curious is to ask these questions.
[00:27:33] I feel that many of us go to medical academics, to doctors, to our clinicians for support, but we tend to switch our brains off. We want you to provide us with the answers. And really what we need to do, as you said, is to get clearer on our own bodies, to be curious about our own bodies, to out, be.
[00:27:53] Connected to the sensitivities and to continue to relentlessly inquire, to reconnect with that annoying sometimes in a child that just wants to know why. And in some instances, at least for me I don't really take no for an answer. And I have high admiration for anyone who in a position of authority or an academic who can say to me, actually, I don't have the answer for that.
[00:28:18] Let me go and find out, or can I refer you or, you know what, let me now go and I've never thought of that before. Let me go and do the research. So be unashamed and fearlessly curious and authentic with your questions because as lay women, lay people, we contribute to the growing awareness in the world through our questions.
[00:28:42] Don't take no for an answer Hannahh?
[00:28:44] Dr Hannah Nazri: Absolutely.
[00:28:45] Melissa Indot: And any parting words for our community before we close off the podcast today?
[00:28:51] Dr Hannah Nazri: Not really. I think we should be, as you say, fierce, fearlessly curious about your own bodies. And I remember in one of your podcasts, you mentioned about, yeah, you don't need to see a doctor if you have a sore throat.
[00:29:03] That's absolutely true. You don't need to see me. If you have a sore throat, we know it's viral, your body has enough reserves to fight infection, you should just eat healthily, rest well, keep yourself hydrated, you're absolutely right. I think to a certain extent as well we need to respect women and their own knowledge of their own bodies and the relationship between doctors and patients should be of a more balanced one where we respect each other's knowledge.
[00:29:31] And of course doctors have to respect patients for their own autonomy and whatever they decide to choose.
[00:29:39] Melissa Indot: Thank you so much, Hannahh. Thank you again for joining us and we'll see you again soon. All the best in all that you do and we'll be sure to stay in contact with you on all your socials as I mentioned and through your blog. That's all for this week on the Fearlessly Curious Podcast. Until next time.